Oblivion No Level Scaling Mod

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UncleLouModerator 28 Mar 2006 18:37:53 40,718 posts
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Yes, it's another Oblivion thread, but I can't say I am really sorry, the other one is too big and fast-moving if you want to talk about one specific issue.
So, is the scaling an issue, or not?
Here's an excerpt of a review that describes the matter:
A couple of hours into the game is enough to realise Oblivion's design is very much in the Elder Scrolls mentality, however in attempting to create an open-ended experience that appeals to all, Bethesda may have inadvertently ended up pleasing newcomers but at the same time frustrating those who've stuck by them through the years.
The source of the criticism and contention is the way in which the experience scales to your position within the game. It's easy to see what and why Bethesda have done this; getting killed by Mud Crabs at the start of Morrowind was never much fun and likely to put off all but the most perseverant gamer, it's also important to maintain a challenge across the board despite the open-ended structure.
So instead Oblivion bases the opponents and the weapons/armour they have equipped on your level within the game, thus killing goblins at level 1 is quite easy but will still provide a challenge as you progress through the game. The problem however is that in the process this concept virtually destroys two crucial elements of an RPG, in the shape of immersion and reward.
The problem doesn't really begin to appear until you've reached level 10, where bandits, who should be killing just to survive, are all of a sudden wearing Ebony armour and wielding other such supposedly 'rare' items. The process of wandering into an area at the start of a game and quickly realising it's far too difficult for you seems to be completely removed from the game, equally the concept of coming back to 'easy' areas once you've levelled up has been displaced; thus the key RPG area of becoming a hero seems to be sorely lacking.
This decision leads to a series of strange situations that break the sense of disbelief running through the game; it's entirely possible to become the Grand Champion of the Arena before you're level 5, whilst we've read reports of one person who completed the main game as a level 1 character, refusing to level up and enjoying the weak challenge presented to him (unfortunately we can't substantiate the claim at present, but it certainly seems plausible).
The decision continues to have an impact on such areas as the economy, with 'rare' items becoming increasingly commons you progress through the game as enemy characters scale up according to you. Without wanting to sound too clichéd it's a decision that has divided fans, it's a feature that has both strengths and weaknesses, it's one that you're either going to appreciate or hate, but ultimately it shouldn't deter too much from the enjoyment that Oblivion's world presents.
What do you lot think?
Personally, I do mind it less than I thought I would in one respect, the 'hero' feeling, because I still feel more powerful than I did when I was level 1. What worries me a little however is that the loot is equally scaled, and every bandit is running around in elite shiny armour all of a sudden.
On the one hand, it's a nearly perfect way to ensure longevity.
However, I really sometimes miss the feeling of other RPGs where you aggressively try to level just so you can finally access a certain area that has just been to bloody hard so far, and finally give that orc/troll/beast what it deserves. The feeling like in Gothic when you finally, fially feel strong enough to enter that mysterious, scary dark wood, curious what might be in there after you had to avoid it for many, many hours. In Oblivion, you can go pretty much anywhere and know you'll never get in a situation you can't master.
So, in short, I can't quite make up my mind yet.
Edited by UncleLou at 18:39:11 28-03-2006

Whizzo 28 Mar 2006 18:42:03 44,810 posts
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I've read the reports of people bumping into fully Daedric armoured bandits as you get higher in level and that just seems a bit daft.
If this was a table top RPG I'd be changing what you face rather than making the foes more powerful but still having the cannon fodder around, usually in larger numbers. The latter probably can't be done due to hardware requirements.

Derblington 28 Mar 2006 18:43:47 35,159 posts
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It doesn't really bother me, the game is good regardless, but I do think they picked a daft way of doing it.
phAge 28 Mar 2006 18:46:02 25,487 posts
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Hmm... Tough one, this. I'll propably go with saying that it is a negative thing - how much remains to be seen as I level up.
lost_soul 28 Mar 2006 18:53:09 9,372 posts
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frod wrote:
Sounds retarded.
I'd agree. Going back to an area where you were previously pwned and being able to really kick arse, after a bit of levelling, is something I enjoy in RPGs.

thegamesthething 28 Mar 2006 18:55:38 1,079 posts
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I think its a nice change to be honest.
The usual area based method (ala FF, WoW etc) is also pretty daft when you think about it. A level 30 in WoW can find wolves in Dun Morogh that can be killed instantly (if you bother aggroing them atall), but others in Felwood that whilst looking much the same can kill in one swipe of a paw. Same applies in FF.
Also the area based method tends to break the game up geographically (that forest is lvl 25, this mountain pass is lvl 10 etc). There are no such areas in Oblivion (or at least that I've seen yet), just one big world.

It does sound a particularly daft thing to do. No point levelling up if everyone levels up with you.
Ah well - not got time to play this anyway. Suppose this is as good an excuse as any not to go and buy it

BartonFink 28 Mar 2006 18:56:46 35,268 posts
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Same here I haven't gone far enoght into the game yet to make an informed decision on whether this is a good or bad thing. On the face of it though and what the guys are saying I would say for a RPG it's probably a bad thing.
One very simple question needs to be answered though:
If I enter an area early in the game and get murderised by a foe that is a few levels above me fair enough but if I come back to that same area later in the game will that foe scale with me? Or will I be able to go into the area and give it a good beating?
I can understand a certain level of scaling i.e. the foe will have had time to build up enduance etc in the time you have been away. But if it's a simple bandit then that is really daft.
Edited by BartonFink at 18:59:34 28-03-2006

SP 28 Mar 2006 19:03:22 355 posts
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BartonFink wrote:
Same here I haven't gone far enoght into the game yet to make an informed decision on whether this is a good or bad thing. On the face of it though and what the guys are saying I would say for a RPG it's probably a bad thing.
One very simple question needs to be answered though:
If I enter an area early in the game and get murderised by a foe that is a few levels above me fair enough but if I come back to that same area later in the game will that foe scale with me? Or will I be able to go into the area and give it a good beating?
I can understand a certain level of scaling i.e. the foe will have had time to build up enduance etc in the time you have been away. But if it's a simple bandit then that is really daft.
Edited by BartonFink at 18:59:34 28-03-2006

The gist of this argument is just that, the mob will scale with you so when you go back to that area you'll probably get murderised again but get better loot.

Dynamize 28 Mar 2006 19:03:49 1,672 posts
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Never liked scaled difficulty myself. I get off on the stuff you mention, like the sense of progression and the triumph of going to a previously off-limits danger-place, all strong and that.
It stands to reason really. The old 'ooooh, don't ye be going up to the haunted house young lad! Terrible things live there!' is fair warning that, if you're not confident in your skills, power and kit, you probably shouldn't go poking around.
As it stands (in theory) I'm not really improving or progressing as such. My level dictates what enemies I'll face, so I'll always be in a frustrating middle ground. I won't be able to wade through a goblin horde swinging my sword and laughing at their pathetic attempts to beat me, because they'll have anti-toughguy kit mysteriously available to them.
Then again, perhaps a quick touch-up of the difficulty slider might deal with the complaint. Though it feels like a cop-out to drop it from 'normal'
Though I love Oblivion, there seem to be a couple of enormously niggling design decisions, the scaled difficulty and the omnipotent shopkeepers who won't touch dodgy gear.
Both damage my suspension of disbelief, which is key in pretty much all escapist media, but should be a no-brainer to RPG makers.
All that said, I'm still loving the hell out of it, and to be honest I'm so wrapped up in my Dark Brotherhood missions that I don't really notice scaling most of the time. There are challenging kills that I can overcome with some proper thought and wily lateral thinking, and there are easy 'just a knife in the back' kills.

Rankin 28 Mar 2006 19:05:41 2,931 posts
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There's a mod already available that goes some way to resolve this iirc. I haven't used it yet, though. No mods on the first play through
Found it,

Dr.Haggard 28 Mar 2006 19:07:18 4,640 posts
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bandits, who should be killing just to survive, are all of a sudden wearing Ebony armour and wielding other such supposedly 'rare' items.
Yes this is an unfortunate side effect, but for me it pales into insignificance compared to the huge benefit brought by this:
The process of wandering into an area at the start of a game and quickly realising it's far too difficult for you seems to be completely removed from the game
I love Oblivion for this, I always hated that sort of thing. I understand what you're saying about it adding to the player's sense of ambition and accomplishment, Lou, but I think it always makes games feel very artificial, and is the enemy of players who just want to explore.

phAge 28 Mar 2006 19:10:39 25,487 posts
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Also, it has to be said that, at lvl. 8, I am finding goblins, zombies and imps a LOT easier to deal with than at lvl. 3-4.

yegon 28 Mar 2006 19:11:55 6,511 posts
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Hmm, that's an interesting article.
Again, not far enough in to either notice it, or form a judgement. A big part of me says Nay, as it flies in the face of what I'm accustomed too, but , I dunno, it *might* be a refreshing change (although the sudden appearance of better loot seems a bit crap).
I'm wondering, how does the difficulty slider affect this?

WoodenSpoon 28 Mar 2006 19:14:35 12,360 posts
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If the problem is as bad as it sounds then what's the point in having levelling at all ?

phAge 28 Mar 2006 19:16:42 25,487 posts
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Ahab wrote:
Anyone playing a mage? I'm at level 10 and my spells (of which I can cast 5 or 6 with a full magic bar) don't do shit to enemies I can kill with a few swipes. Pretty nice skill levels too...but sometimes it feels a bit silly, having to cast 20-30 lightning/cold/fireball etc spells to kill someone.

I'm a lvl. 8 mage, and I'm finding it rather easy. I tend to use touch-spells the most, tho - 2 blasts of Touch of Winter (IIRC) is enough to floor most bandits.

mal 28 Mar 2006 19:33:54 29,326 posts
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Whizzo wrote:
If this was a table top RPG I'd be changing what you face rather than making the foes more powerful but still having the cannon fodder around, usually in larger numbers. The latter probably can't be done due to hardware requirements.

Agree. The fun of levelling up is being able to wade through masses or previously impossible beasties, and also in being able to tackle the real biggies. You should experience battles early on that you just have to flee from (although I wouldn't argue with a game system that lets to retry the battle the first couple of times until you take the hint)

UncleLouModerator 28 Mar 2006 19:45:02 40,718 posts
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tengu wrote:
Feanor wrote:
I can't quite remember, but I think FFVIII also had this type of scaling. Maybe tengu or someone else can say for sure.

It did, yes.
It's good that the game has this kind of system to it imo, gives you the freedom to go anywhere right from the off, which is a large part of what makes the game great really, isn't it?

Now I don't want to talk about Gothic again, really, but it just is a good example. There isn't any scaling, but it's still fairly open from the beginning. You have a huge area you can explore - at first, you have to stick to the safer roads, but after a few levels, you'll be brave and strong enough to leave them. However, there are areas you soo realise you shouldn't be, and it adds a lot. Like the aforementioned forest, which makes you more and more curious, the longer you play, until you finally levelled up enough.
It really doesn't hinder your exploring, as there are enough other areas where you can do that, but it adds a layer of excitement, curiosity and even fear to the game. Or that bandit camp where everyone is a lot stronger, so you always have to run and sneak past, but then the feeling when you can finally take them out! In fact, it even adds to the exploring fun, in my opinion, as you'll never know if you went too far and will have to run for your life.
Of course, it's not as open-ended as Oblivion is, but it's brilliantly balanced, giving you a feeling of constant progress while never feeling claustrophobic or too linear.
Really, I am loving Oblivion, but that's what I miss - fear, danger, and finally revenge!

Mashum 28 Mar 2006 19:54:19 156 posts
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This sounds dissapointing - I'm only lv.4 at the moment but coming back to administer some justice to those goblins who was something I was looking forward to doing in a few level's time and no mods for me on a 360.

Dirtbox 28 Mar 2006 20:05:04 92,582 posts
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phAge 28 Mar 2006 20:32:57 25,487 posts
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Dirtbox wrote:
I'm far enough into the game to have come up against those Daedric armoured bandits and it's become a pointless grind.
Fair enough if it were once in a while that you stumble across them, but every time? Nothing from a lower level comes at you, they've died out completely and made way for uber-warriors all at around the same level as you so you're never able to wade in and deliver a skull-crushing one hit kill on anything. unless it's a crab or a rat. Even the lower level beasts vanish to make way for bigger, meaner versions of same. you'll never see that lower leveled monster ever again.
Useless.
The game was immesurably easier when I was level one, noW it's just ridiculously hard.
Edit: Come to think of it, I haven't seen a rat for ages. I think they died out in dungeons and made way for Champion skeletons armed with Glass hammers and Elven shields. Fab.
Edited by Dirtbox at 20:10:43 28-03-2006

Sounds like a patch waiting to happen... :[

Dirtbox 28 Mar 2006 20:36:40 92,582 posts
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thegamesthething 28 Mar 2006 20:39:05 1,079 posts
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Dirtbox it sounds to me like you want to play a different game. I usually find games getting harder rather than easier a good thing.
Dont get me wrong, I love all the aspects of the usual level approach discussed above (and am highly adept at finding the ease/loot payoff areas, where beasties around 3 levels lower than your character are quick to kill whilst still providing good income/xp), I just think that Oblivion makes a really nice change. If all areas continue to provide a challenge later in the game, I look forward to that.

phAge 28 Mar 2006 20:40:54 25,487 posts
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Dirtbox wrote:
You can kiss them goodbye once you get to level 10, you'll never see them again.

I sure should hope so - if I ´never see another Imp, it'll be too soon... I'm actually hoping that playing as a mage will go some way to alleviate this problem, as I'll (hopefully) be able to craft spells that will help me kill specific enemies more easily.

Dirtbox 28 Mar 2006 20:55:12 92,582 posts
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ProfessorLesser 28 Mar 2006 21:56:03 19,693 posts
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/random
Another problem I have is how difficult it is to level up as a mage. You just don't use magic skills as often as non-magical ones, but of course as a mage you pick them as your major skills because... well, you want to start with decent spell ability.
But by the time you reach level 2 you've already gained 30 levels in sneak, block and athletics. What a waste of multipliers!

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